9/26/05

lorrie moore and robotics; author and story; language and numbers

lorrie moore has a line,
her brain was drying and subdividing like a cauliflower
i think how much pleasure my brain decides to give me when i read a line depends on how possible my brain decides it might be for a robot to write it (the line)

lorrie moore is the anti-cyborg of writing

of the writers i've read, i feel like it'd be hardest to program a computer to write something that lorrie moore has written

she is more human and less robot than all other writers, i feel, that i have read

jean rhys is sometimes (in good morning, midnight) as human as lorrie moore (in this sentence-level way that i am right now talking about)

computers do not think in language, but in zeroes and ones

they plug things in and make whirring noises and do not have faces

computers do not have epiphanies or moments of heightened imagination; they just keep going at the same speed; they cannot try harder; are either on or off; do not have desires; and do not get sad; they are enlightened

idioms and stock phrases and cliches are closer to zeroes and ones, maybe, than to language

idioms are two-or-more-word expressions whose meanings have nothing to do with the meanings of the words that make them up

lorrie moore has a paragraph,
Perhaps you could open your arms and have so many honeys that you achieved a higher spirital plane, like a shelf in a health food store, or a pine tree, mystically inert, life barking at the bottom like a dog.
that she thought of that makes me happy

to think of that—life barking at the bottom like a dog—is not a trick, is not a gimmick, not something copied or deravitive (not something that is an improvement of something else), but something sudden and new, something of luck, hard work, patience, alertness, open-mindedness, and objectivity

these are the things of imagination, i think: luck, hard work, patience, alertness, open-mindedness, and objectivity

schopenhauer (i think) said genius is the gift of objectivity

to see things without preconception, as they are

lorrie moore's language is beautiful to me; i wouldn't use the word 'beautiful' for anyone else's language; sometimes other writers have beautiful language; but lorrie moore almost always has beautiful language; she is so often sudden and new

i don't care much for story

i don't want plot

i don't want to be lead along

that is like materialism

accumulating things in life

these things lead you along, neccesitate the next (what comes next; you must know!), and you sort of forget that you're going to die

a complicated kindness, by miriam toews, did not have plot

it taught me to stay and detach and be calm; 'calm down,' it said; 'sit down; stay'

some writers say you should cut a line even if it's good if it interferes or distracts from the story

don't fall in love with the lines, they say, the language; don't be so in love with your own brain

i say leave the line and make more lines like it and just have it all be beautiful without leading anyone along (without tricking anyone; plot: so like a scheme, like a one-sided game, to keep the reader's attention like that, how inconsiderate almost) and fall in love with the language and show off a little because they taught you in second grade that you are unique and this is true and don't deny it and i want to see just how unique you are

here is a paragraph from haruki murakami's latest story in the new yorker, translated,
Junpei was sixteen years old when his father made a surprising pronouncement. True, they were father and son; the same blood flowed through their veins. But they were not so close that they often opened their hearts to each other, and it was extremely rare for Junpei’s father to offer him views of life that might (perhaps) be called philosophical. So that day’s exchange would remain vivid in his memory long after he had forgotten what prompted it.
a robot could've written that paragraph, i think

(i know nothing about robots, do not have a degree in engineering or robotics or computers and fell asleep everyday in pre-calculus)

stock phrases, cliches, idioms

reading that paragragh, i feel unconnected to the world of humans; i feel alone

when i read a story that cares only about story, i feel unconnected to the author

i feel vaguely cheated and vaguely unalive and vaguely despairing

i feel like the author has made a clone of him or her self, a clone that denies the self but is a kind of machine that cares only about the story

and that is who i feel connected to, when reading story-stories, the clone of the author

and it's a trick against me

the author is at home, sleeping, eating, living his or her real life, and i am trying stupidly to make a human connection with the clone, the once-removed and de-consciousnessed thing, the unhuman, scarecrowed thing

but i want to feel connected to the author

feeling connected to the clone makes my brain hurt in an inner-brain, nervous-systemless sort of way

it's a kind of numbness

i mean this

really

literally, that when i read a story that has revised out any evidence of there being an author—an identity—who is idiosyncratic and passionate about certain things and despairing at times and sad and lonely and angry and all these feelings and biases and motives, then i feel a little numb, physically—literally—though vaguely and dizzyingly, even, somewhere in my head

maybe this is the feeling of having denied a bit of my own self, my own identity

of forgetting it a little

getting lost in the 'story'

(the 'story' of it all)

becoming a little enlightened

as, to revise the author out of the story (there is just one story, really, maybe; the story of everything), isn't that what buddhists talk about when they talk about detachment?

give oneself up to the story, stop trying to be your own self, because all there is, objectively, is the story?

are identities lies that force upon us desires, which cause us suffering?

are identities truths that force upon us desires, which cause us suffering?

does lorrie moore cause us suffering?

i don't think she causes me suffering

she makes me happy

i am not detached when i read her

but attached, to her, and unlonely

but maybe that gives me desires

maybe i should practice detachment

that is, maybe i should practice attachment to the authorless story

(that has revised the author out of it; the story that has no identity, but is just there and impersonal and like a universe of atoms and zeroes and ones and that 'anyone could've written it')

and not the author

(who has revised the story out of the language; that is, who has asserted the identity; who has gone against robotics, by using language, but who has also, maybe, made him or herself a little robotic, as robots do not know stories, do not make connections between events in that way

humans do; they see the connections, the plot

robots see the zeroes, the ones

robots practice objectivity and are geniuses, and einstein (i think) said genius is imagination; but humans are not robots

because robots do not have consciousness—right?

robots cannot see the life barking at the bottom like a dog)

16 Comments:

Blogger zeldafitz said...

You know what? That is amazing what you just wrote. The whole damn thing. The biggest relief is when you said reading that story in the NYer made you think a robot had written it. I love the references to connections and to adding a line and to keep adding lines (that you like). I think writers get so screwed up with all this advice that is tearing them away from visceral images and thoughts and feelings. My writing group just advised me to "take India out" of a story I had written. I can't do it. India--the country--stays. It is integral. The story goes back and forth and people get confused--they want it to be in one setting or maximum two, but it's in four settings and no one can handle that. But I am an advocate for that story and you just made me feel a lot better about it.

10:07 AM  
Blogger Karin said...

What the hell? Where is the post?

I loved that post and I wanted to respond. I agreed with so much of what you said.

11:51 AM  
Blogger Karin said...

zeldafitz:

I like your blog.

12:01 PM  
Blogger W. said...

why are computers enlightened?

is becoming a little enlightened bad?

is getting lost in the story enlightening?

is denial a bad thing?

I like story. I like robots.

--W.

2:18 PM  
Blogger Tao Lin said...

zeldafitz:

yes, writers need to just be told to do whatever they want

your writing group should be begging you to teach them how to write

you have been published in the chattahoochee review and get handwritten rejections and i probably spelled chattahoochee wrong


karin:

i posted it last night and when i woke up it had disappeared

but i have a bloglines subscription to my own blog and copied and pasted it back, with edits, so here; respond!


w:

computers are enlightened because they don't care about anything

even if you torture a computer it doesn't care

but i really like robots and sometimes sincerely feel sorry for them

they are like dogs

they look cute even if they are ugly

7:01 PM  
Blogger this is just taking up space said...

I like the aesthetic you set down here. Even though I have a soft spot for Ian McEwan, who is VERY robotic in the sense you describe, I love language that approaches reality in an individual way -- neither resting on cliches nor generating complete randomness.

I'm not familiar enough with Lorrie Moore. (sorry) I love the second passage you quote.

10:43 PM  
Blogger Karin said...

I’m sorry if I seemed gruff when wondering what happened to the post. I just liked it so much I was shocked it had disappeared.

Mostly I wanted to say that reading on a sentence by sentence basis as a means to understand the writer is precisely why I love to read. When an image is crafted in a way I’ve never imagined before – like the dog barking at one’s feet – it reminds me that there’s beauty in everything, and it makes me happy to be alive, and it inspires me to write. This is the purpose of art; to fill us with the thrill of existence and to remind us we are all here together, thinking about similar things, coming to similar conclusions, but expressing them in vastly individualistic ways. Art lets us see things we’ve seen a million times before with a fresh lens, and thankfully, there are endless permutations to how those things are represented.

However, I do love a good story. It all depends on what the artist is aiming for. I see your point when you say plot as a form of manipulation. But sometimes I want to be manipulated. It’s a form of escape; it’s a form of entertainment. Reading Lorrie Moore or Joy Williams or Melanie Rae Thon isn’t exactly entertaining – instead it feels like a dialogue: I listen to what they’re saying in a given passage and I sit back and reflect upon it. I move to the next passage, and I reflect some more.

Even these stories have some kind of plot. If a story has no plot, no real characterization, no arc, then it might as well be a poem. Readers need some kind of timeline, some movement. You can scatter the timeline, you can cut up the story, but within the story there should be a logical beginning, middle, and end, even if nothing cataclysmic happens in terms of action. Often people read stories by writers like Lorrie Moore and say, “nothing happened,” but what they’ve overlooked is that something HAS happened. The characters likely had some emotional evolution (or devolution) during the piece; they likely changed in some way, however small the change might have been. If I can’t make some sense of what I’ve read by the end of a story, then I likely won’t consider it good writing.

Of course, I really only experience that dissonance in the workshop setting. Anything published tends to be polished at least minimally. But in workshops, people either do too much, or too little. I haven’t read zeldafitz’s story, obviously, and I imagine India should stay in the story – she intended it to be there, after all – but it’s likely her fellow students were reacting to a fundamental problem within the piece, had difficulty articulating what it was, so the best they could say was, “There are too many settings,” because the high number of settings might have been the most obvious complexity. I see this again and again: The writing is solid, even illuminating; there are lots of interesting scenes and characters and themes; good dialogue – all the pieces are there, they just don’t fit together well enough.

That being said, anyone could criticize almost any published short story in this way. But there is some invisible line that needs to be crossed in terms of craft, and good readers have an inherent understanding of this line, even if they can’t point out where it is, or what it takes for a writer to cross it. They likely can’t cross it themselves.

*

Different topic: Robots. I think robots are lovable, too. Whenever they’re featured in sci-fi my heart always goes out to them. They are true innocents. They are victims of humanity’s ego – we hope to someday create fully conscious artificial beings to prove that we are as good as God.

Has anyone read Ray Kurzweil? He speculates a LOT, and a lot of what he says seems very unlikely, but basically, he maps out a timeframe in which robots will eventually replace humans as the dominant species on this planet. His arguments are compelling.

Point is, don’t rule out the possibility of robots gaining consciousness someday. It just might happen. And I wish I could live to see what kind of art they come up with.

10:49 AM  
Blogger Tao Lin said...

thisisjusttaking:

you should read some lorrie moore!

i read the mcewan novel about where one guy's a doctor and someone gets murdered or something; i don't remember it; it won the booker prize i think

i also read his short stories; his first book

i liked the one where the two people drown

the one about the shy person murdering someone (was it murder or rape?) feels like something i might've written when i was sixteen

i liked the one where they are in a relationship and young and they kill a rat; they made a movie out of that one and i really liked the movie


karen:

to me, lorrie moore and joy williams are very entertaining

i can remember clearly rereading joy williams and feeling happy and excited; almost having fun, even (this while reading stories in honored guest)

melanie rae thon less so

i'm not sure i know what entertainment is

when i 'escape,' if it's to a duller, stupider, banal-er, unoriginal-er, less comprehensive place of more cliches, more stock phrases, more predictability, and more mindlessness, then that is interminable to me, like a kind of torture, a higher-powered form of ennui, boredom, and existential despair

when i read lorrie moore or joy williams, it is also an 'escape,' i guess, but to a place where all the adjectives to describe it are the opposite of the ones i used in the paragraph above

if i had a writing workshop, i'd make it a rule that people can only say good things, no matter what

and i mean this

think about if there was no criticism, ever, in writing

writing wouldn't get worse, i don't think

or it might

but people would learn to like that worse writing

i know exactly what i'm talking about right now, i think

2:40 AM  
Blogger W. said...

i don't think writing should descend into eggers's singing happy land of no criticism ever. but, i understand where you're coming from. still, i would miss old-fashioned bare-knuckles literary feuds. writers are not nice people. that's why i like them so much.

i love the cheesy. i read lots of trashy sci-fi, bad movies, comic books, and commercial thrillers. these are all places of more cliche, more predictability however they are also...

i got bored of defending the cheesy. so, hate away.

bye.

--W.

10:13 AM  
Blogger Karin said...

It is interesting to imagine what the literary world would be like with no criticism.

I don't think it would go over very well, because then, how would we know who to read? There'd be no room for preferences anymore. You couldn't claim Lorrie Moore's greatness because Danielle Steele would be just as great.

I'm just talking trash, but there a good writers and there are shitty writers. Period.

And why should I like that 'worse writing'? I don't want to live in a utopian fantasy land where everything is beautiful and perfect. I'd rather scrutinize the world and understand it objectively.

There is this effervescent term called 'quality' which was discussed at length in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. Some works of art have it, some don't. Figuring out how to produce something with high quality is very, very hard. But it's delusional to trick yourself into believing that your work innately has quality just because it came from your own unique mind.

BUT! Positive comments are essential in the workshop setting. Every writer should know what they're strengths are, because if they don't, then they can easily fall victim to low self-esteem, which I've seen cripple so many writers.

And if you're in a good workshop with peers you trust, then criticism can really help you grow. You just have to accept that a few negative comments here and there don't discredit your talent, or nullify the story you're trying to tell.

If the world were a just place, writers would be born with thicker skin. But it isn't; plus, it's likely people become writers because they never had thick skin to begin with.

4:46 PM  
Blogger Tao Lin said...

"...i don't think writing should descend into eggers's singing happy land of no criticism ever..."

why not?

"I don't think it would go over very well, because then, how would we know who to read?"

you read what you like

and you learn to like everything

"You couldn't claim Lorrie Moore's greatness because Danielle Steele would be just as great."

you're right; and that'd be good

"There is this effervescent term called 'quality' which was discussed at length in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintenance'. Some works of art have it, some don't."

or you could say that some people are able to see appreciate and understand and be tolerant while others are not, or are less so able to

"...then criticism can really help you grow."

help you grow in a bad way, i would say; that is, in a less tolerant, less understanding way

because writing is not like trying to save the environment

you can't get 'objectively' 'better' at it

i like lorrie moore, but other people hate lorrie moore

who is right?

no one is

6:44 PM  
Blogger The Man Who Couldn't Blog said...

Perhaps we have to trust concensus. A lot of people really like Lorrie Moore. A lot of people who read a lot really like Lorrie Moore. Therefore, Lorrie Moore is good because a lot of people like her.

But, wait. A lot of people really like Danielle Steele. A lot of people who read a lot really like Danielle Steele. Therefore, Danielle Steele is good because a lot of people like her.

But those are two very different kinds of people.

How do robots deal with concensus, when two different sections of its brain agree with itself, but disagree with each other? Does that happen? Or, is that what the Asimov circuit controls?

No. Wait.

10:51 PM  
Blogger Geraldine said...

If we trust a certain "writerly" consensus, then we'd still have to do the subjective filtering-- John Updike is 'supposed' to be really good but he's not (IMO)--he just writes those same middle-age-angst pieces all the time and I think he sucks although I do admire his proliferability (if that's a word).

Then again, I haven't read 'as much Updike as I should' since that's just a sliver of everything he's written.

But then again, why do I feel the need to 'read more Updike?' I should keep going w/ not reading him and read things I like

But I haven't really read anything arresting lately so maybe I should read Updike

One of the reasons why Updike is so 'accepted' is b/c of his reviews so.........I think writers should write their own criticisms!!

B/c I like reading criticisms/reviews just as much as reading books-- I think there's a distinction b/w 'workshop criticism' and 'literary criticism.' (I don't think we should 'get rid' of them--'them' being literary criticism-- and I don't think we'd be able to anyway even if we wanted).

Workshop criticism tends to be more 'like/don't like' and more superficial while literary criticism is based on already entering a work and thinking it's "OK" to a certain extent and supporting how/why it's "OK"

I wouldn't be able to understand Ulysses or Moby Dick as well if it weren't for all those analyses that helped me not hate something that I probably would've hated

2:59 PM  
Blogger Geraldine said...

I want to read "the Last Question" by Asimov. I heard it was good.... in a REVIEW!

3:00 PM  
Blogger the world's greatest father said...

the idea that writing (or any art/craft) may contain some innate "quality" that somehow legitimizes it is romantic bullshit. there is nothing behind those onion layers except what the reader finds.

re: criticism; i see nothing wrong with as it doesn't generally influence most book buying/reading decisions. what is much more hurtful (both quantitatively and qualitatively) is the obsession with genre cagtegorization (as evidenced by recent nonfiction/memoir hysteria), as it prevents certain books from reaching certain people.

3:09 PM  
Blogger Richard Yates said...

decadent

12:20 PM  

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